Ep. 77: The Vision Behind the Mall Revisited

[00:00:00] Mall of America. It's home to world-class shopping, great dining, and amazing attractions and events.

[00:00:05] And these are our stories presented by Bloomington, Minnesota Travel and Tourism.

[00:00:12] Happy New Year, everyone. On this first day of the year, we're all brimming with dreams,

[00:00:17] hopes, and goals that we can't wait to tackle. While our So Much More crew takes a well-deserved

[00:00:22] break, we're excited to take you back where it all began. Today, we are resharing our very first

[00:00:29] episode, an inspiring conversation with John Germazian. In this episode, John dives into

[00:00:34] the rich history and the bold vision that brought Mall of America to life. So, as you kick off

[00:00:41] a full year of possibilities and maybe begin that weight loss journey, remember, dreams really

[00:00:47] can come true. Enjoy the episode, and here's to an incredible year ahead.

[00:00:53] Hi, everybody. This is So Much More, a Mall of America podcast that brings people in the

[00:00:59] business world together to talk about great business stories and about the people behind

[00:01:02] the scenes. So, I am Jill Renslow. I am your host today, and I'm joined by my co-host, Dan

[00:01:07] Jasper. Hey. And we have an amazing special guest with us today, John Germazian. So, we're

[00:01:13] super excited to have John here because him and his family are part of the Triple Five group.

[00:01:16] They own Mall of America along with a couple other properties. So, we're going to learn the

[00:01:20] behind the scenes with John today. So, welcome, John. We're excited to talk with you.

[00:01:24] Welcome. It's going to be great. Thank you. Hey, John. I'm excited to be here. It'll be

[00:01:28] fun. Yeah. So, we're going to learn all about the Germazians and about Triple Five, and

[00:01:33] want to just kind of get started to learn a little bit about your family. So, tell us a little

[00:01:37] bit about the family and how you guys got involved in Mall of America. Okay. That's a story

[00:01:46] that goes many decades back. You know, Mall of America is very grand, obviously. And so,

[00:01:54] my family are immigrants, and the story starts as early as my grandfather reading stories

[00:02:00] to my father and his brothers about, I think the way they say it was like, Bob who goes to

[00:02:06] America. And they just read the story over about these large airplanes and these skyscrapers.

[00:02:12] And they were very excited about this idea that there's, you know, really that American dream,

[00:02:18] that vision that you can come to America and have incredible opportunity. So, they came,

[00:02:23] they came, eventually they came as foreign exchange students to McGill University in Montreal. But

[00:02:30] really, you know, even though they came, you know, with very meager means, their aspirations

[00:02:36] were explosive. And so, you know, my father started working as, you know, in Macy's working

[00:02:43] like in the back packaging and then would slowly slip upstairs to the main sales floor and start

[00:02:49] selling products until one of the people told him like, they would tell him like, go back into the

[00:02:55] basement. And they realized that this kid knows how to sell. And just got from there into, you know,

[00:03:02] into the rug business because that's a big Middle Eastern business. And then got into real estate

[00:03:09] slowly, realized that it's much easier to, you know, identify property. And they just, they've always

[00:03:16] had a vision of doing big and great things. My grandparents, my grandparents who are no longer

[00:03:21] with us, they imbued that idea that nothing is ever limitation. And they have, my father and his three

[00:03:29] brothers, they're all, you know, alive and healthy. Thank God. They just thought big. And so when they

[00:03:37] had amassed a large amount of land in Edmonton at the time, which is the economy was doing well there

[00:03:43] and they had done some carpet auctions there. My father was actually an auctioneer. He became the

[00:03:48] auctioneer because the head auctioneer who was someone that they actually paid a lot of money to

[00:03:53] do the auctions just didn't show up. And they had a whole room of people. So my father,

[00:03:57] you know, he has a heavy accent and he didn't know what to do. He said, I'll go up. And he ended up

[00:04:03] by that, you know, selling double or triple, whatever. So he became an auctioneer for about 15,

[00:04:07] 15 years. Learned a lot about people and interactions. So one of their stops was in Alberta

[00:04:14] and they met, they met a fellow who, you know, saw these young guys with a lot of potentials of

[00:04:18] why are you schlepping around the world in, in, in these, with these trucks?

[00:04:22] Uh, let me teach you how to buy a piece of land. And so they bought the property and, uh, they bought

[00:04:28] up a lot of land at first. And that was for West Edmonton Mall. That was for, oh yeah, that's right.

[00:04:32] That this is for, this is where we started at Top in Canada. Yeah. Um, they started for West Edmonton

[00:04:36] Mall and ended up building, um, without, I mean, they'd done small retail projects before that and a

[00:04:42] hotel eventually built the largest mall, uh, in the world. I remember growing up just always the pride

[00:04:48] of buying the Guinness book of world records and just saying how many times, you know, West Edmonton

[00:04:53] Mall would come up in that, uh, largest, uh, largest indoor water park, largest, uh, shopping center,

[00:04:59] largest parking, you know, uh, uh, parking facility for, for, so fast forward, once that project had

[00:05:06] got off the ground and it was incredibly successful, thankfully, um, they took their crazy idea and felt

[00:05:12] that, you know, we could replicate this, um, um, climates match. Yes. So then I wouldn't say,

[00:05:19] I would have preferred Miami. So like, not sure what the thinking was in the future. That's right.

[00:05:24] I mean, we do have plans for American dream Miami. Um, but they, once they saw the impossible

[00:05:29] as possible. So once you have that recognition, then nothing will stop you. And, uh, although you,

[00:05:35] you had a city and state that had no clue what this was and, and it didn't make any sense logically,

[00:05:41] like, well, you're going to build the largest mall in the United States in Minnesota. Um,

[00:05:47] but in the beginning, it wasn't just the Gramezian family. There were other partners

[00:05:50] involved. So how did they get pulled into this opportunity knowing that there were other partners?

[00:05:54] So, um, PCL is our, is our construction, uh, uh, partner that helped us build West Edmonton.

[00:06:00] We've been long partners with them. And so they knew our appetite and we knew their capabilities. And so

[00:06:05] when this project came to, you know, the ideation phases, you know, there weren't many

[00:06:10] developers that sort of were crazy enough really to envision it. And once we got involved, we

[00:06:16] expanded the scope and the vision and the, and what it really could be, um, you know,

[00:06:22] shopping malls for the most part were just aggregations of stores. Um, and the family felt

[00:06:28] that, you know, they'd seen some ice rinks and some, you know, malls and they'd seen some little

[00:06:34] putting and they say, you know what, why don't we just build an amusement park as an anchor

[00:06:38] to drive people. And that theory has held true for the last, you know, 40 years where people want

[00:06:44] experiences and then, you know, they'll do their shopping as ancillary to that. So, so fast forward,

[00:06:50] PCL brought us into the project. Well, they made us aware of it. And then, um, we were really excited.

[00:06:55] I mean, you know, middle of mid America, central to Canada, U S East and West coast. Um,

[00:07:01] and the name itself. Yeah. So I have to ask really quick, how old were you when mall of America opened,

[00:07:07] if I may ask, and what do you remember doing when the mall first opened? Yeah. So I was 11 years old.

[00:07:15] Okay. Um, the mall first opened. So we have a lot of cousins and so we sort of grew up as just a family

[00:07:24] of, that was our summer vacations or traveling together. And so when the, when the mall opening

[00:07:29] happened, there was like, you have to understand the mall is part of our DNA. When I, when we were

[00:07:33] kids, we would work the midway, right. Uh, the midway games in West Edmonton mall. Uh, I remember

[00:07:39] holding a microphone and you know, the coin toss and having people come in and, you know, collecting

[00:07:44] the coins at the end of the day. It was like really, you know, we really, you know, just like here when

[00:07:49] people are walking and we pick up the trash just because we feel like it's our home. Um, that's a

[00:07:53] sentiment that we've always had. Um, but a cool playground for you guys to grow up with, you know,

[00:07:59] not only West Edmonton, but then. Absolutely. Yeah. We used to, okay. I'm maybe we, I could share

[00:08:05] this. We used to go and practice the midway games, uh, after hours in West Edmonton mall.

[00:08:10] So you could ace it. I love it. We would, basically we cleaned out the fair. They realized there's

[00:08:16] something wrong. Uh, we learned all the tricks. I know how to do them all. Um, to the point where

[00:08:22] my wife hates when we go to, you know, the fair here because she just doesn't have any room

[00:08:27] in the car for all the stuffed animals. I'm going with you this year. I love the fair.

[00:08:30] We're going together this year. Yeah. He can teach you all the tricks. I love it. So that

[00:08:34] was sort of the excitement we had. We're like, wow, this is going to be somewhere else new.

[00:08:37] Uh, and we, when we came, it was just very grand. I remember mall of America, you know,

[00:08:43] it was already a few years, that West Edmonton mall was already a few years old, but there was

[00:08:46] such a newness and the freshness. And, um, I remember there was an arcade up on the fourth

[00:08:51] floor and there was a gentleman, um, he told me years after it was his father. I just met him now.

[00:08:57] Uh, recently and he told, and I told him, I said, your father gave us each a bag of tokens.

[00:09:02] I think cause our parents didn't know what to do with us. So we were literally in that arcade

[00:09:06] for like three, four days straight. Um, but going on the rides, it was, um, it's different

[00:09:12] when you feel like this is something that you're proud of. Yeah. Uh, well, what I've loved about

[00:09:17] your family and obviously working with a family for 25 years now, it's been inspiring because

[00:09:22] they are truly visionaries, you and your cousins and your uncles. I mean, it's, you guys can see

[00:09:27] the big picture. So as you developed mall of America decades ago, um, just what was that

[00:09:34] vision that, that you guys pitched that really inspired everyone and really was it, you know,

[00:09:40] knowing that this is just a piece of the grander opportunity as we look into the future?

[00:09:46] Oh, that's a good question. Um, my uncle should probably, father should be interviewed for that

[00:09:51] question, but I guess as a bystander, um, their philosophy is, um, human experience. They believe

[00:10:01] that people just want to live and experience life in the whole, in the, in a holistic way.

[00:10:06] Uh, and that's sort of like, if you say like there's a driving theme in the family and that's,

[00:10:11] that's sort of what it is. And so that's, you can sell that you can convince people that

[00:10:17] you're going to have the most incredible experience. You know, there's an interview of my father talking

[00:10:21] about, you can go surfing in the middle of the summer. Like people are thinking like,

[00:10:26] what are you talking about? Right. But in their minds, he's actually experiencing it while he's

[00:10:31] talking about it. You know, the, that's another incredible thing is to be able to live a vision

[00:10:37] and, and be in it. So when people are like asking you questions, like that's impossible. They're like,

[00:10:43] no, it's possible because I'm there right now. And I see that, you know, my father, you know,

[00:10:47] he's be healthy and well. He, he's still like that he lives his vision. So I think because they

[00:10:55] were so excited about it and they, and they believed in it, then, then the rest follows when people

[00:11:00] want to see confident visionaries and, and to believe truly. And really there was a lot of

[00:11:05] investment that came in also. It wasn't just, you know, just convincing other people. There was a lot

[00:11:09] that, you know, the family put into it as well. So I think that helped. Well, and I love the fact

[00:11:14] they're never shy of a challenge. You know, there's hurdles in the way with a variety of the projects

[00:11:19] that they've worked on. And I think early in the days and even not being here at the very beginning,

[00:11:24] but you know, hearing about all the naysayers that this is not going to work. You're in

[00:11:28] Minnesota, you're in the middle of the Midwest. It's cold, it's snowy, people, how are people

[00:11:33] that travel there? How did that, how did that challenge the family of how to like really push,

[00:11:39] almost like push them to even try harder to succeed? I feel like, I feel like that's the

[00:11:45] amazing way. Like when it's, it's hard, it's, it pushes to do things bigger and better.

[00:11:49] Yeah, for sure. There's no question about it. We had incredible partners with us, right?

[00:11:54] Right. Rudy Perpich was one of them who bought into the vision early on and without his help and

[00:12:00] many of the other, you know, council members and city people and even community members that just,

[00:12:05] they believed something bigger could be done. So we couldn't have done it without them,

[00:12:09] but they really were tagging on to this idea. I think ultimately, I mean, I think at one point

[00:12:16] they actually flew in the submarines from West End and Tamal and they put them, they laid them

[00:12:21] out on the grass in front of city hall. I'd love to see pictures of that. I'd never seen it,

[00:12:25] but I've heard of that. I have pictures of that. Do you? Yes, I will show you.

[00:12:29] There's a submarine. People still remember that today and that's what I think.

[00:12:31] So like, like who would have, who'd do that, right? Who's going to airlift a submarine and put it in,

[00:12:36] and, and I'm, you know, my father was saying, we're going to have a submarine lake, which is what we

[00:12:40] have in Edmonton and it, and we have a replica of the Santa Maria, the Columbus ship.

[00:12:45] It's just, it's really sounds crazy, but when you, when you live and breathe that, it becomes just

[00:12:52] normal, normal talk. And I think people recognize it was real. And, you know, at the end of the day,

[00:12:59] people want to be excited about something big. And the impact for the community was obviously

[00:13:03] what was going to be massive in terms of the economic impact. So, you know, checked a lot of

[00:13:08] boxes, helped bring a lot of, a lot of new jobs, new jobs into the marketplace. So, absolutely.

[00:13:13] Well, Dan and I have grown up in Minnesota, but you have recently moved here. You know,

[00:13:19] you've lived and breathed this world of retail and entertainment since you were young, right?

[00:13:24] This has been your world. What was it like then to actually move here to Minnesota with your family

[00:13:30] to be part of our Mall of America family here? Yeah, that was an interesting thing. So I was,

[00:13:35] we have different investments in different areas. And so before moving here, we had some investments

[00:13:42] in oil and gas in Houston. And it was a little bit different, more of a commodity driven industry.

[00:13:48] And I thought, you know, let me learn something outside of the core business that I grew up with.

[00:13:54] And that was an interesting experience. But I think sort of the family's mindset was that

[00:14:02] the retail world is in such flux with all like, you know, Amazon was, was starting to really become

[00:14:09] a contender and all the challenges that came with retail. And, you know, the family was thinking like,

[00:14:14] you know what, let's, as much as we're involved with the project, let's, you know, let's have somebody

[00:14:19] there to sort of like reinforce and support whatever it is that we're doing so well already.

[00:14:26] And so opportunity was there. And I was, I was super excited. I, I'm not deterred by the weather.

[00:14:32] I love Minnesota. I love, I love the sense of community. And so I've, thank God, a bunch of kids

[00:14:38] and thinking where's a good place to lay the roots.

[00:14:42] It's a great place to raise a family.

[00:14:43] It is. Yeah.

[00:14:43] It's a great place.

[00:14:44] And being on site with your family, I mean, you mentioned something earlier, which I loved,

[00:14:48] which was that you still pick up a piece of garbage on the, on the floor, right? Because

[00:14:52] this place is your home. And that's quite honestly, something you've instilled to leadership and to

[00:14:58] all of our team members. Walk around and you see a bunch of team members picking up trash off the

[00:15:03] floor because they see this as their home. And now that you're here full time, what does that mean

[00:15:08] to you when you see a team that's dedicated to this property?

[00:15:12] Well, that was the most incredible thing for me. I mean, I, I didn't have the expertise of the team

[00:15:16] here. And so I was coming in to really learn and experience what had been done for so many years

[00:15:23] prior and just to sort of bring us, you know, more of a family link and sort of like that vision for

[00:15:29] what's next. And that's, you know, primarily what I do. And we have an incredible experience together.

[00:15:33] But for me, it still was like part of our family's fabric. Like, even though we don't live here,

[00:15:39] we talk about Mall of America all the time and, um, and everyone's so proud of, you know, what it's

[00:15:43] become and what it represents. Um, so, you know, in a sense, it was just getting closer to something

[00:15:51] we were already close with. And thankfully I've had a lot to learn from the leadership team here.

[00:15:56] And, you know, you know, how many, how many incredible years of, of, of people who've been here and

[00:16:03] dedicated from the beginning, where did you start? What was your events intern 25 years ago,

[00:16:09] that's intern, right? Isn't that awesome? Yes. And I'm still here. And I love that. And I think

[00:16:14] that that says so much about what we are is because we're more than just a business where,

[00:16:19] we're always pushing the envelope of what could be next. And I think, you know, Jill's passion has been

[00:16:25] just the strongest since I got here in the first day and years as well. And I see that around

[00:16:29] everyone that we interact with and it empowers me, makes me excited. Our success has been celebrated

[00:16:36] now 30 years with this year being that commemorative year. Um, and you've seen a lot of events and

[00:16:42] special things that we have created as a team, um, that we brought to our guests. You've been here on

[00:16:47] Black Friday mornings with us at the early hours of the day. Um, so I would love to hear, you know,

[00:16:53] since you've been with us on site, what have been some of those favorite moments for you, um, that

[00:16:58] you've been able to experience and be part of? Um, so many different things to talk about.

[00:17:06] I mean, Black Friday is really something I think everyone's going to talk about and to sit to,

[00:17:12] you know, wake up early. And I've had my kids come also. They're just like, daddy, we want to come

[00:17:16] not even to shop, just to be part of an excitement. People are coming with their families. And when

[00:17:23] they're just here and part of the tradition that they have with their families, that to me is,

[00:17:27] is definitely a highlight. And another piece, and I think others have shared the sentiment is like,

[00:17:32] I love watching people here for the first time. And when they're with their kids and they're just

[00:17:37] having this, this incredible time to connect and, and just be able to make everybody feel happy and

[00:17:43] in a safe and in a welcoming environment, that to me, it's really motivating.

[00:17:48] There's nothing more rewarding than to just walk through this property and to see the happiness on

[00:17:53] people's faces because they choose to be here and they participate in the things that we create and do.

[00:17:58] And especially this, you know, the time of year during the holidays, um, it's really special just to

[00:18:02] see people enjoying themselves. And you guys have that vision from the very beginning. So it's...

[00:18:07] Another, another thing that I, I do get excited about is when we have new concepts,

[00:18:11] new retail concepts that open up that don't exist elsewhere. And a lot of the retail that opens at Mall of America

[00:18:17] is usually brands that we convince to push them, push their concept to the next level.

[00:18:23] And when that comes to fruition, then it just shows how, how much leverage we have within pushing the community

[00:18:32] further and doing, you know, I remember Lululemon when they were doing their expansion. So we met with the leadership team

[00:18:38] and they were coming looking for, you know, they wanted to do a little bit of an expansion because the store is their number one store.

[00:18:43] And we were all standing around and I looked at them and I said, don't you have an R&D team as part of Lululemon?

[00:18:49] And they're like, yeah. I said, so what are all the crazy things that you want to do, but you've never done anywhere?

[00:18:54] Why don't you do it here? Like what better place? And they all unanimously looked at each other and they just got super excited.

[00:19:00] And then they opened a yoga studio and a cafe and that Lululemon store now serves as the, as the sort of like the epicenter of how they plan their experience stores.

[00:19:12] And I mean, this, this Black Friday was, I mean, it's the number one store in the entire chain and that excites me too.

[00:19:18] Yeah. It never ceases to amaze me.

[00:19:20] And I love this, that Lululemon has long lines on Black Friday and they don't have a sale.

[00:19:26] It's a record breaking sale.

[00:19:27] People just want to go there, right?

[00:19:29] I think this year there was the first time I think they had some things on sale.

[00:19:32] It's the experience for them, right?

[00:19:34] A few racks.

[00:19:34] A few racks.

[00:19:35] Yeah, exactly.

[00:19:37] But that's the best part of it is like helping the retail community sort of re-envision itself.

[00:19:41] That's something that personally, you know, I'm very passionate about and motivated by.

[00:19:44] What I'm inspired most about your family is the generational learnings that you guys have.

[00:19:51] And I've sat in many meetings where there are three generations in the meeting and it might be those that are at the table and then maybe younger ones that are watching and observing from afar, taking notes.

[00:20:02] But I always love that within your family is that you embrace that learning opportunity early on.

[00:20:08] What would you say as you've grown up in your company and in your family as far as like that lesson learned, that thing that you hold close to you that motivates you to continue to lead and to represent Triple Five as you move forward?

[00:20:24] Ooh.

[00:20:27] One thing is our core values.

[00:20:29] And I think you'll see this through a lot of the first, second, and third generation is that, you know, we're, you know, obviously a Jewish family, but we take our values very deeply.

[00:20:40] And for us, that's sort of been the core of how our family has been able to stay together and maintain that connectivity is that, you know, you could talk about success, but if you don't have any definition of where your values are and where you draw the lines,

[00:20:55] then, you know, then I think we would have easily got lost with the tide of the success that comes with it.

[00:21:00] And, you know, like, you know, we observe the Sabbath and as incredible as it is, like, first of all, we have a conviction that we just don't engage in the business because we believe there's a day of rest and connectivity and spiritual growth.

[00:21:12] At the same time, we are able to do that because we know that we have an incredible team that we just don't have to worry.

[00:21:18] And we've gone through some really difficult periods in Minnesota, even in the last few years.

[00:21:23] And I remember having phone calls with, you know, with the team and just saying, you guys, whatever you decide, we're, you know, we have the confidence.

[00:21:31] And so I think values before anything else has to be a core, a core driver for anyone.

[00:21:37] And you need to share those.

[00:21:39] And I think another, another important aspect is because we're a family business, we take a very long view on things.

[00:21:47] Typically, like when you have investments that you need to get a return after a certain amount of time.

[00:21:51] And so you're going to have pressures to force you to do certain things.

[00:21:55] I think because we are long and intergenerational in terms of our view, we're able to weather the storms and not get too excited by the lows and not too excited by the highs.

[00:22:05] Because really, this is going to be something that we're going to hopefully, you know, maintain and make even more successful over the years.

[00:22:11] It doesn't mean that you don't challenge yourself and rethink.

[00:22:14] But I think just, you know, when we go through difficult times and I talk to my uncle and he's like, ah, don't worry, we'll be fine.

[00:22:22] It's good to hear that because he's been through three or four of those and everybody has.

[00:22:27] But to have that, you know, that conviction and obviously faith has a lot to do with it.

[00:22:32] And that's a little mix of everything.

[00:22:35] That's what I learned.

[00:22:36] I love that generational view.

[00:22:38] I just have to chime in if I can because, you know, so many companies are driven by quarterly success, right?

[00:22:44] And they make rash decisions based on that.

[00:22:46] And I love that I work, quite honestly, for a company that has this long-term vision that, yeah, there's highs and lows.

[00:22:53] But we have this vision in mind.

[00:22:55] And I just think it speaks volumes to what your family stands for and what our leadership stands for as well.

[00:23:03] Well, we've had 30 years of success and there's so many decades more of success and fun and memories to come.

[00:23:09] So thank you, John, for joining us today.

[00:23:12] It was great to be able to hear the story about the family and the vision for Mall of America.

[00:23:16] And that wraps up today's So Much More.

[00:23:18] We're looking forward to future episodes with you.

[00:23:22] So come back and listen and watch what we have in store at Mall of America.